What's happening family. Just wanted to post some gameplay for an example of what I am seeing and how I am playing NBA2K12. I know some users are having a problem with the game and it's hard to discuss without something to see.
Sometimes it can seem like one person is seeing issues that another person isn't or at least not to the same degree. It is my belief that this is due to playstyles. I believe the cpu reacts differently depending on the users input.
This is why AI vs AI games can look so bad but user vs AI can look much much better.
I have always believe that it does no good to try and make a game conform to how you think it should work. It is always easier to find out how the game was designed to work and tailor your interpretation of the game around that.
That is only if you really want to enjoy the game. That is a big part of what I try to do with my videos and tutorials is show you how I believe the game was designed to work. What it's intentions are. To allow you to "see" how your particular style can be most effective.
With that said here is part 1 of a full quarter of gameplay between me (Lakers) and the CPU.
My focus in this game was to use my size and length inside to get great post scoring opportunities and then snipe at them with Kobe in spots. I wanted to go under all screens and force this team to beat me from the perimeter.
I also wanted to severely limit their second chance points and hustle points and make this a drag out half court affair.
My settings are all-star with sim gamestyle with these changes mid range and 3 point success for both user and cpu are set to 47 everything else is the same as sim gamestyle.
And here is the conclusion of the 1st Qtr
For all the complaints I read about game-play and this or that. To me this was one hell of a quarter of video-game basketball. Your always going to have some weird things happen in a game vs the AI. Guys will take some bad shots. CPU is going to cheat you on a pass or two. The question is did that define the experience ? Or was it a one off occurrence ?
The game is not perfect I say that all the time I think the difference is I really don't expect it to be. Can it improve. HELL YES. But simply compare this to a video of 2k11 with the same teams and you will see that a year's worth of programming is all in the code.
Don't play video games... Play BASKETBALL !!!
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ReplyDeleteArtest putback dunk?
ReplyDeleteMy general complaint about this game is they added a new offensive interface, allowing an offensive player to just about anything on the court while the defense plods around waiting for it to happen and praying for a miss. Low quality shots go in at a rate that is far too high, especially noticeable on And 1's.
Scary thing is Lakers are tied for 3rd best defense (behind Heat and Bulls) and w/ good defense the mediocre Blazers (20th offensively) still shot 41%. What would happen if you were the Jazz or Suns, or a bad team like the Kings/Wolves?
Love the videos, Czar, but what happened to all the play calling? Almost every shot in this game looked like either an iso situation with the clock running down or a broken play.
ReplyDeleteAlso it seems like the "Shot Quality" grades are bunk. this matches my own experience with the game so far as I've seen countless "A"s with perfect release come nowhere close. It may be just me, but it sure looks like a lot of "C"s and "D"s go in while "A"s and "B"s did not.
It would be interesting to see you play against a team with an elite "Slasher" type player as opposed to the Blazers. It seems to me that the superstar wings and 2 guards with decent dunk packages are totally overpowered right now as stopping the drive is so difficult and the threes (even contested) fall like rain.
I forgot to mention, what was with that steal where Bynum ended up with the ball when the Blazers were trying to bring it up out of the back court? I'm seeing way too many plays like that where quality PGs are being stripped (or fumble the ball) before they can bring the ball up by big men. Maybe you can comment, but the amount of steals seem to be a major issue in online play so far.
ReplyDelete@Tmoney are you talking about the cpu offense or my offense as far as the play calling just to clarify.
ReplyDeleteThe shot quality is not bunk it's just most people don't understand the underlying heuristics of 2k's shooting system.
They are very complex but people usually interpret them simply as in I was open I released at the right time that shot should go in.
Most of that is proprietary so I can't reveal exactly how it works but the main thing is the averages. IF I force you to take a tuff shot let's say your release is poor and it's a well contested shot.
You may only have a 5% chance of making that shot. But if it happens to fall user's feel cheated. When if you were forced to take the same shot with the same defense 100 times you would miss 95 but you could still make 5.
Especially when uses play short quarters (less than 12 min) the percentages can seem skewed. Over a much larger sample the percentages work out as they should.
In addition there are hot and cold streaks. Each player has hot and cold zones on the floor. Different defenders have a different effect on your shooting % depending on their ratings and other attributes.
While I 2k I play an entire game in debug and look at the heuristics for every shot and they all made sense seeing the percentages. The gotcha is that even when you have a 90 percent chance to make the shot. (Good shot good shooter wide open in a hot zone on a hot streak) there is STILL a 10 percent chance you can miss.
2k12 is paced and percentages are made for a 48 minute game. We can break down any real game you choose and see guys make shots they shouldn't and miss one's they should.
In a video games form tho guys sometimes wants a videogame solution to their input. Meaning a straight I did this right shot should go in 100% of the time.
IMHO that does not translate into realistic hoops. Because unexplainable things happen in a real game. Guys go cold. Guys get hot. The only way to replicate this and still have user control is to use percentages.
Coaches say all the time. They ball may fall or it may not but we can always defend.
As for the steals for years 2k has had it where every touch of the ball did not equall a steal. Rob's reasoning was that guys like cp3 don't get ripped that often. Users complained complained complained. This year they make the ball more live. Not 100 % but more and now you what happens.
ReplyDeleteIt's a balance thing and it's obviously going to take some more work on their fault to find a good balance.
I have heard guys both complain that there are not enough reaching fouls and conversely that there are too many.
They need a new mechanic and system for on ball steals but no one will ever be completely satisfied.
"I forgot to mention, what was with that steal where Bynum ended up with the ball when the Blazers were trying to bring it up out of the back court? I'm seeing way too many plays like that where quality PGs are being stripped (or fumble the ball) before they can bring the ball up by big men. Maybe you can comment, but the amount of steals seem to be a major issue in online play so far."
ReplyDeleteTMagic,
From watching Part 1 of the Blazers vs. Lakers video it looked to me like Gerald Wallace tried to pass the basketball to Raymond Felton but Andrew Bynum was in the path and the ball bounced off him instead. Bynum didn't intentionally swipe at the ball to try and steal it until the ball deflected off of his body first.
Guys,
ReplyDeleteAre you seriously contesting 2 plays out of 12 minutes of pure astonishing gameplay? That tells me a lot of your gaming experience.
From what I saw, read and played so far, it seems that the game is a blow out, and Da_Czar has got much more experience than you guys in basketball and especially gaming. He says something basilar that any REAL gamer should know:
"I have always believe that it does no good to try and make a game conform to how you think it should work. It is always easier to find out how the game was designed to work and tailor your interpretation of the game around that."
That's the way pro gamers make money guys.. you should know that if you call yourseves gamers. And I am not speaking only about sport games of course.
Moreover if you want a simulation, you have also to accept that if you play with the Hornets you hardly will get a title.. or please post back here when the Hornets will get one. Respect to CP3.
What I think is that people will never be happy, but that's also what helps 2K sports to improve every year, but please be unhappy for real issues.. the game has been improved a lot since last year, and you have to still learn to play it properly (as I have to). Also remember that meanwhile EA Sports doesn't make any other NBA Live/Elite (whateverthewantedtocallit) cause they understood there is no-way to compete with the titan that NBA 2K is..
Come on guys, grow up and seriously try to play basketball, or eventually get yourself a copy of NBA Jam (which is great too ;))
@Da Czar,
ReplyDeleteits true no one will ever be completely satisified. but you can steal make the game as releastic as possible under the current gen of systems. and even though i like a lot of the live ball stuff on 2k12. it couldve easily been tweeked before release. so that tells me. once again. SOMEONE wasnt doing their testing(long enough, the right people testing the game looking for the right stuff, or at all). i assume it was the first 2. OR, you guys are testing a game in "testing mode" vs testing the final product before release. see there needs to be testing in both scenarios.
and i do understand how they come up with their shooting grades. i wonder why its so secretive. its not like its truly accurate on a 8 min, 7,min, 6min, or 5 min game. sure 12min. great. but lets do the math. if you have 10 2k lovers. how many of the 10 play 12 min qtr games on a regular basis? 2 and thats pushing it.
so when they come up with their numbers and their equations. it needs to be made to reflect a true to life 5 to 8 min qtr experience.
and i'll tell you how to do that. and what they are missing.
its called FATIGUE & Defensive learning potential of all teams.
this it the nba. the teams with no defense. still have more defense then people would think. they have scouts, coaches, etc. they know the game inside and out. you cant keep running the exact same play 100 times over and over and score on even the dumb teams in the nba. they will adjust. thats the differnce between the nba and college, and college then high school. you know this Czar.
the adjustment factor is serious the higher you go in hoop. this same adjustment factor happens individually as well. more so for good to great defenders then with not so good defenders.
for example.
if the lakers are killing me with gasol and bynum, eventually i'm going to start to pack the paint. even though thats not what my team is known for doing. if they killed us in the 1st half. and i'm a dumb team, it may take us a full half to wake up. then we adjust. the thing is this. pjax was so good at making an adjustment at half or in the 3rd specificially that most coaches couldnt keep up. so as soon as you make your adjustment at half. now i'm going thru kobe again in the 3rd. now he's busting you up. and the bigs are only decoys now. but this is real hoop. the better the defensive players/teams(boston for instance). the faster they adjust.
this is something 2k is not utilizing at all or not enough.
what you have now with 2k is what you said czar, that they took out. when changing from mode to mode, pro to superstar, to hall of fame. you said its no longer super human AI. its just smarter AI. and i say thats not true. because even on pro. i'm looking at this stolen passes.. i'm replaying them to see if its anticipation or is it on que(meaning the moment i hit the pass button to a cutter, its an AUTO steal by the CPU on pro or above). i found out its an auto steal. depending on the type of cut and the pass 2k chooses for you to make. whic is another problem. give us the ability to select bounce pass, over head pass, chest pass.
its not hard at all to pull off.
real simple. send this to your 2k guys.
overhead pass = quick tap of the (pass button)(if you're holding the RT down while standing steal. it will throw a harder pass aka bullet)
chest pass = press and hold the (pass button), same rule applies with RT
bounce pass = double tap of the pass button.
.......
..... now watch how i fix the defense to counter this so people wont be throwing bounce passes all the time. i give a person the ability to countrol their hands in directions. you hold the righ analog up on defense your hand are up for a over head pass, you hold it out to the sides (9 o'clock & 3 o'clock) you're ready for a chest pass. you hold it down 5 0'clock & 7 o'clock) you're ready for a bounc pass. now give this same ability to the cpu.
ReplyDeletethe difference is now in AI. if its ron artest or rondo. these guys will figure you out quicker. if you keep throwing bounce passes in the 1st qtr. come 2nd qtr. rondo and ron will start to tip the pass and or pick some off.
and thats another thing make more tips not pick offs.there are tons of TIPPED balls in the game of hoop. the tips will help the user realize "uh on ron figured me out, better go with the chest pass, or i better not try to give my big the ball from that angle. now i HAVE to swing it.
^thats how you create REAL hoop utilizing REAL HOOP. not try to simulate real hoop by putting in percentages to FORCE certain things to happen regardless of whats actually going on in your game at the time.
this is 2k's biggest problem. they think because people like their simulated outcomes. they are the best "SIM game" ever. that may be. but to be the best isnt good enough. there's zero comp now but to achieve the closest thing to real life hoop as you can. should be the goal.
you no longer have to play the percentage game in regards to what happens as far as made shots, missed shots, where it forces misses when people are wide open for layups. like "its miss time. even though most ball players wouldnt blow that layup.we have to make you miss because its miss time.
....now FATIGUE. the fatigue should have a more drastic effect on how you play. and it should decrease faster depending on a players stamina level.
ReplyDeletemost guys get tired and start to shoot short on their jumpers, most guys get tired and take a little off the passes.This will fix the problem with not enough turnovers, not enough missed shots. i will start missing because steph curry just cant get that same lift on his jumper come 4th qtr that he did in the 1st. this makes my shots more susceptible to blocks and just plain misses. so in order to get a perfect release in the 4th qtr, guess what. i have to hold down the shot stick longer or shoot button longer so i will raise up higher. but doing so will also help decrease my stamina. dunking a lot will also decrease my stamina more so then doing layups. dunkers know that it takes a lot out of you to dunk, especially in traffic. see you dont have to make me miss just cause. i'll start missing cause i'm to tired to jump high enough to dunk properly. i'll start going up weaker and weaker as the game progresses. depending on the player and the defense they throw at me.
the difference between in a good team and a bad team. is not just focus at the beginning of the game. its who can stay focus once fatigue sets in and once adjustments are made.
i know this was long czar but you have to understand where i'm coming from. i just dropped another 60 on 2k. i want the game to be great. its good in a sense. but is lacking some obvious fixes that should've been caught out the gate. no excuses. some things are a matter of opinion. these above are not. everyone making 3's like crazy is not an opinion its a fact. its totally unreleastic.
dribbling off of peoples knees way to much is not an opinion its unrealistic. you dont have to cut the LIve ball out to fix it either. the better the ball handler, the less he will drob the ball when he runs towards someone. now if he's sprinting and the ball is being pushed out in front yes thats live regardless. but guys are walking and someone is bumping into you bam ball is loose. nba players have HUGE hands most times. they are not losing the ball like 11 yr olds.
at the same token. if i reach and my hand touches the ball. it better be tipped or stolen. so now the offensive guy has to PROTECT THE BALL(use triple threat moves that P.maravich taught you). but at the same time if said defender keeps reaching wildly. remember i said you should give them directional reaching ability. well then fine if they swing low to the right and the ball is high to the left. they should hit my guy on the left side and its a FOUL. real hoop translated to real sim hoop.
that will stop peopel from reaching like madmen. but it will also stop the offensive guys from just ISO dribbling in your face.
@king you misread me. I said that the higher levels are NOT more sim. They are just more difficult.
ReplyDelete@Da Czar
ReplyDeleteno i read you right. you said unlike in years past. supposedly they fixed the upper levels(superstar/hall of fame). where the cpu would become godly all of a sudden. vs just playing smarter. which would make it a bit tougher for me the human player. which would force me to run more plays on offense, and learn how to play better defense without just running around wildly. i'm saying perhaps they do play smarter. it seems they do, even on PRO.
the problem is, you can see some things are not about smarter play even on pro. its about if human presses the pass button, while cpu player is cutting, and the pass choice that comes up(based on certain criteria) is an overhead pass. it will be stolen by the CPU defender. not some time but EVERY time. if you replay these scenarios. you could tell its not the smart computer catching me slipping. its just like a tougher level change, where the cpu is godly and knows what your next move is. because it does. its in the formula.
which is why i went on my give us FREE lol, and let us CHOOSE the type of passes we make(over head, bounce, chest).
it would not be hard to map it like what i stated above. if you can map combo moves in a fighting game that goes x, x, Y,y. means double kick flip. then you can map A, A, to mean bounce pass.
if you can make it so that we can choose our layup side(right or left) good job 2k. you can allow the defender to choose which hand he reaches with, right or left. and at which angle. up, mid, or down. like i described above.
see i gave you new weapons on offense. but gave you new weapons on defense to offset them if you choose to do so.
Madden has had it in the game where the defense eventually starts to figure out you keep calling up the gut runs. so the defense will start to shut that down. depending on how good their team defense is, and their individual upfront guys/line backers. you may get your run crushed. if your running back is mcfadden or A.P. and the team has a soft defense. they may stop the 10 yard breaks, and turn them into 6 yards.
if the defense is great. say good bye to up the gut.
UNTIL you start using other plays. which makes the cpu attempt to RE-learn your plays. while thats happening. they are slowly forgetting the original up the gut moves. now you go BACK to up the gut. TOUCH DOWN.
this works in real life as well as CPU AI. on any game.
humans think like that. the better your awareness is at a certain thing in a sport(hoop iQ: offensive/defensive). the larger your memory will be if someone attempt to switch it up for a time. you dont forget what their bread and butter is. a less intelligent hoopster would forget. and would get caught off guard more so then lets say a RON artest(individual), or a larry brown(defensive minded coach).
This same thing can be used for the AI in 2k12.